View Full Version : Missa Sanctissimae Trinitatis

31-08-2007, 11:05 PM
A friend in France drew my attention to a performance in his country of the Missa Sanctissimae Trinitatis on the 15th September at the Festival Baroque Pontoise, by Marek Stryncl and his Musica Florea.

For information, see: www.festivalbaroque-pontoise.fr.
For the radio transmission, see: www.radiorgb.net. The date of the transmission isn't mentioned yet.

Best wishes,

23-09-2007, 08:23 PM
Peter, Thanks a lot for this information.
I have been to the concert and to the 2 rehearsals before.

Small ensemble (2 Fl, 2 Ob, 4 Vn, 1 Va, 1 Vc, 1 Kb, 1 Bn, Organ,
SATB : 3,2,2,2, ...), but great sound.
Disposition of the orchestra : all basses (Basso, Kb, Vc and Bn) in the center.

Unique experience !

There are now samples of the concert at :


30-09-2007, 07:28 PM
Hi Skiaouros,

I'm envious, wish I was there myself.

Maybe I can ask you two questions about the superb work you two have done again, now with the Missa Paschalis. Very interesting piece, especially the opening chorus of the Gloria and the nice Benedictus.

The Kyrie II is still lacking: Kyrie I da capo doesn't seem likely. Is there a reason why it's missing as far as you know? Or am I asking this to soon? And I suppose, as in e.g. the repeatedly revised Missa Sanctae Caeciliae, these are the ultimate versions by Zelenka?

Keep up the good work! Great to have opportunities like this to get to know unrecorded works!

Best wishes,

01-10-2007, 04:14 PM
Hello Peter,

Thank you for your comments !

Eventually I finished the Kyrie II of ZWV7, Agnus Dei and Dona nobis of ZWV1.
As far as I know the autograph of ZWV7 is unique and definitive.
About the ZWV1, I used an edition that may not be definitive, some scholars (in New Zealand ?) may be working on a more complete edition.

I did the ZWV9 too, for now the mp3s are quickly done.
ZWV8 and ZWV14 are on the way, thanks to G. Reuss.

And more works are programmed...


01-10-2007, 09:08 PM
Hi Skiaouros,

I missed the Kyrie II earlier on and seem to havo overlooked your recent addition. Great to have the Missa complete! And an interesting schedule of the structure of the mass you two have compiled. Very helpful!

Must confess that I especially look forward to hearing the complete ZWV 14, mentioned by Reich and Kohlhase as one of Zelenka's most interesting 'earlier' masses...

Au revoir,

01-10-2007, 09:48 PM
Hi ,

So far I have finished Kyrie, Gloria and first movement in Credo of Missa Nativiatis Zwv 8. One aria in Gloria I miss one page, so it might be delayed.
Like Zwv 7, the mass seems to be written in haste. His handwriting is ugly, sometimes very ugly. The pages of some of his late masses (http://jdzelenka.net/manuscripts.htm) are very pretty compared to Zwv 7 and 8.

Missa Paschalis Zwv 7 is now complete in repository. It would be nice to hear what you think of this mass.

Kyrie of Missa Sancti Josephi Zwv 14 is also available in repository. After my opinion this Kyrie is the best movement before his 5 late masses. Listen to it. What do you think ? (Yes, Im trying to start a discussion here.)
The windinstruments, both brass and woodwind, have an important role in this movement. Of the recorded works, only the first movement of Zwv 46 Requiem comes somewhat close in using the so many windinstrument with important musical material.
This mass begins with a 4 bars introduction before the main theme. Cool.

The progress of making this mass is slow because many pages are heavily damaged. Also, I dont want to finish it to soon, because this mass is so fun working with.
Dona Nobis Pacem is the next upcoming piece. (Short version of Kyrie.)



04-10-2007, 05:47 PM

Why not some discussion? Your wonderful work certainly deserves it!

Interesting mass, ZWV 7: I like the opening chorus of the Gloria very much, especially the way in which the brass is used in the middle section. Most choral movements contain some striking effects. E.g. in the Kyrie where Z. seems to use the kettledrum solo. Yet I think this mass certainly shows why some commentators have pointed to the rather uninteresting arias and ariosos in the masses from his ‘middle’ period. The Domine deus seems rather undistinguished, as well as the Christe Eleison (to a lesser extent), don’t you think?

What do you think of ZWV 8 and 9? Interesting stuff?

I agree, the Kyrie from ZWV 14 is very satisfying. Same grandeur as in the Kyrie from ZWV 11 but more elaborate and refined, orchestral. Best mass movement before the five late masses? As far as I’m concerned: yes, although it certainly has to compete with the two fugal movements in ZWV 16. Exhilarating movements when performed as by Ensemble Inegal. (Can’t wait till their new CD arrives!)

Maybe a detail, but are you sure the Kyrie ZWV 14 shouldn’t be taken at a faster pace? Of course I don’t know the tempo markings, but it seems to me the slow section near the end would perhaps benefit.

I hope the Gloria from ZWV 14 is as elaborate as the Kyrie? Then we certainly are in for a treat! Pity there isn’t a Credo in this mass...

Best wishes,

01-11-2007, 10:46 PM
Hi Peter,

I have worked with Zwv 14 and some more movements are now available as midi files in repository. And yes, there are more interesting movements besides Kyrie. Cum Sancto Spiritu is a real treat.
About the tempo's in Kyrie; I think the main section is ok. There is a limit how fast one can play octaves before it sounds blurred. The slow section just before the end might endure a faster pace before loosing its character.
Zwv 14 Missa Sancti Josephi is, after my opinion, the mass where Zelenka is most "modern". Some of the themes as more classical than baroque in style. Listen to the end of Cum Sancto and Sanctus. Compare it with Händel and Bach and say it sounds baroque. Nah...
Incredible how he changed his style in two years from Zwv 13 Missa Gratias agimus tibi to the next. I think Zelenka worked very hard to make this mass.
I rate this mass a better work that Zwv 17 & 18. Cries for a recording.

Zwv 8 & 9;
Lets start with Zwv 9 Missa Corporis Domini . Have many similarities with Zwv 7 is style. I like it better than the 7th. The Credo and Dona nobis are very good movements.

Zwv 8 Missa Nativitatis Domini is altogether very different from the two mentioned above. Where Zwv 7 & 9 are grand and solemn masses, Zwv 8 is light in character and "happy".
Sadly this mass doesnt contain Sanctus and Agnus dei. Probably these movements were lost early, perhaps in Zelenkas lifetime. All early copies of Zwv 8 contains the Santus and Agnus dei from Zwv 10 Missa Charitatis. Or perhaps Zelenka never wrote them.



07-11-2007, 10:37 PM
Hi Germund-Atle,

Thanks again for all the instructive remarks. It must be wonderful to dig into these unknown works.

As far as ZWV 14 is concerned: don't know if you know it, but you're not the only one with an high opinion of it. Thomas Kohlhase remarks in the Zelenka-Studien II that in his opinion two works of Zelenka absolutely need to be published "aus stilistischen und qualitativen Gründen": the Litaniae Omnium Sanctorum and the Missa Sancti Josephi.

I can't find any trace of a performance in the past. Let's hope someone (Bernius, Viktora) takes that trouble in the nearby future!

Best wishes,