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Thread: ZWV 6 Missa Fidei

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default ZWV 6 Missa Fidei

    This is a thread for discussing the score of Missa Fidei, ZWV 6. The discussion continues from this thread:

    The following is my last post there:

    Alright, I spent a few hours with the score of ZWV 6 today. Will have quite a lot of stuff to write about, but now let's just concentrate on the Amen.

    "Especially bar 15 was difficult. I looked at it for 3 days before I understood what to do."
    I'm awfully sorry to criticize the result of your hard work, but one thing that struck me when reading bar 15 was that it was a bit un-vocal in the tenor voice. (But only a bit, and all composers of vocal music have written something un-vocal.) (edit: when editing this post some time after writing it, and having thought through the harmonics, I must say the tenor voice does not seem particularly unvocal to me now. The problem of the bar not sounding too well in my ears persists, however.) And frankly, for me it doesn't sound too well, perhaps due to three lower voices concentrating on g-a notes in the first three beats. What was your reason for writing "g" on the third beat in the basso voice (and not "e")? (From the size of the note I gather that the score was illegible there.)

    So, not having the manuscript to consult, I could let my imagination run free :-) I noticed you hadn't used the fact that the b.c. dictated #4 in the first beat of bar 15. In the first version I changed only the tenor (but let it have the "e", albeit a tad earlier) and put "e" instead of "g" in the basso (bar 15 is the third bar in my examples):

    But then I thought that the "a" in the tenor voice was perhaps clearly written in the score, since you used the "normal size" font there. So perhaps other voices could be changed, and if so, the sopranos and altos could be changed as early as the last beat of bar 14 (the "smaller size" font begins there). Here are 2 versions (I have some others in mind, but these 2 present the most important choice to be made: where to put the "c sharp" and "e").

    The second proposal (sopranos get the "c sharp"; I had to avoid downward movement of all four voices when going from bar 14 to 15):

    The third proposal (altos get the "c sharp"):

    I prepared a (lousy) MP3 file for you to aurally check out my proposals. It's here:

    It has about 30 seconds and consists of my 3 proposals, in the order displayed above. I think I'm partial to the 3rd one for a few reasons, but of course unfortunately it may have nothing to do with what's really in the score - please tell me your opinion!

    ================================================== ====

    Other things regarding the Amen:

    1. Bar 14 has "6 4" in the b.c., which would dictate d-minor, but there's clearly a-minor there.

    2. Bar 35 has a parallel octave between basso and tenor (in the smaller size notes). One of many possible solutions: change the two last quarter notes in the tenor voice to four 8-notes "d e f d". (It would make for some motivic connection with what's going on around.) But there's another thing - are you sure the basso should have "e", not "c", in the first beat of bar 36?

    3. In bar 51, the third note of the tenor voice should be "g", not "f".

    4. In bar 53, there is a soprano-tenor parallel fifth. In my opinion the third note of the tenor voice should be "d", not "e", and everything becomes fine.

    5. In bar 61: how about removing the natural sign in the b.c. and the basso? Is it in the score?

    The music is fantastic, thanks gain for your hard work! In the coming days I'll post my comments regarding the other movements.

    Best regards,

    Leszek Wronski.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2008


    Here are some of my other comments regarding ZWV 6.

    I. KYRIE 1

    1. Bar 15: Oboe 2 and violino 2 are missing an eighth rest on beat no. 4.

    2. Bar 16: In the same two parts as above the second note needs to be a quarter note, not an eighth note.

    3. Bar 28: If this region really is to be "Strumenti colle Voci", as written in bar 25, then the first two notes of the first violas should be an augmented eighth note with and a sixteenth note, not two eighth notes.

    4. Bar 32: The soprano and alto parts should have "Solo" marks, I think. (If you agree that it should be so, then they also need to be removed from bar 34.)

    5. Bar 41: The alto should have a "Solo" mark.

    6. Bar 49: The f sharp in the first violas should be a quarter note (similar as in the altos), not an eighth note.

    7. Bar 55: The second note of the soprano should be "a", not "b" (see the instruments).

    8. Bar 56: The tenor and 2nd violas are wrong - the "f" on the second beat is not consistent with the b.c. and other voices. It clashes e.g. with the soprano and the 1st violin. The two "wrong" voices could e.g. have an "e" there. Solution: let the tenor sing (and 2nd violas play) "d(8) c(16) d(16) e(8) f(8)" in the first two beats of bar 56.

    9. Bar 57: I'd put a "Solo" mark in the basso voice (even though it's obvious).

    10. Bar 69: Oboe 2 and violino 2 are missing an eighth rest on beat no. 4.

    ================================================== =========

    As for KYRIE 2, my most important doubt is the following: consider bars 35-36. The subject enters in the basso, the countersubject in the soprano. The shape of the countersubject would dictate it having "b flat" instead of "b natural" twice in bar 36. It also sounds more natural to me. What's more, consider changing "b natural" to "b flat" also in bar 37, on the 3rd beat of the alto. The whole passage sounds better to me this way, especially since there are "b flat" notes in the tenor and basso on the 1st beat of bar 38.

    More comments are coming (I have them written in pencil in the score); I'll just edit this post or write another one if someone replies.
    Last edited by Elwro; 24-01-2009 at 02:28 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2008


    Alright, much time has passed, perhaps a new post (instead of editing an earlier one) is in order :-) Here goes:


    1. The first note, „a” with a „7” in the b.c. is a bit mysterious (“a minor 7” leading to “D”? At the beginning of a Baroque aria in a minor?), but perhaps it should be left as it is.
    2. There is a violin passage which appears twice, in bars 13-15 and 53-55. In bar 53 the “f” has a sharp sign; in bar 13 it doesn’t, and the other voices are the same in both cases. Changing the “f” to “f sharp” in bar 13 would be exactly the thing I suggested earlier regarding ZWV 3 but to which G.R. convincingly opposed :-) Do you really think Zelenka meant bars 13 and 53 to sound differently? Also, I really don’t get the meaning of “c sharp” in the end of bars 15 and 55. A “c natural” would sound perfectly fine, but if the author explicitly wrote a sharp sign there, well, perhaps he was on to something…

    III. KYRIE 2

    1. Bar 11: The first two notes of the oboes, 1st violin and sopranos should not be eighth notes, but an augmented eighth and a sixteenth.
    2. Bar 14: 2nd violin and altos should, I think, have an “f sharp” on “ri” in “Kyrie”.


    1. I just want to notice that the “9” in the b.c. in bar 28 is realized by the altos; whereas the “9” in a similar place in bar 24 has no vocal realization. This could be changed by having the sopranos sing “e” as their first note; but it could of course also be left just for the b.c. player.


    1. In bar 3, 2nd oboes and the b.c. should have an “a sharp” instead of a “b flat”.
    2. Until bar 33, the movement seems to be (vocally) written for a solo basso and choir. And so some “solo” / “tutti” marks would be in order. My proposal: for the tenor, put “tutti” in bar 10, just to be sure; for the sopranos and altos, put “tutti” in bar 11, similarly. But for the basso: put “solo” in bar 5, then “tutti” at the second note of bar 11, then “solo” in bar 13, “tutti” from the half of bar 20, “solo” in bar 23 and “tutti” from the half of bar 31.


    1. Similarly as Domine Deus, this one seems scored for a solo voice (now the tenor) and a choir. So, I’d put “tutti” in altos, bar 3 and in bassi and sopranos, bar 4; as for the tenor, “solo” in bar 1, “tutti” from the second note of bar 4 but “solo” at the fifth note of this bar, “tutti” from the half of bar 10, “solo” from the last two notes of bar 11, “tutti” from bar 18.
    2. Violas and tenors should have “e c” instead of “d b” as the last two notes of bar 20.
    3. There is a parallel octave between sopranos and tenors in bar 33/34. Solution: the first note of the tenors in bar 34 should be a “b natural”, not “d”.
    4. In bar 45, shouldn’t the second note of altos and 2nd violin be “c” instead of “b”? (More “motivically” fitting and sounds better.)

    Together with my above comments regarding Kyrie and Amen, this concludes what I have to say about ZWV 6 right now. (I still haven't checked the b.c. thoroughly.)

  4. #4


    Thank you Sir for your judicious corrections.


    1. KYRIE I
    The instruments are derivated from the voices, except when indicated (W, Oboe, Fag, Org)
    1,2,3,6,10 : corrected (bug of the software)
    4 : added Solo like in bar 41, Solo in bar 33 not removed because of bar 43.
    5 : Solo is written for Alto too.
    Bar 43, I added indications for Alto "Viola 1" and Tenore "T: Viola 2",
    suggesting all voices are Tutti, also BC is Tutti.
    7. Soprano second note is A
    8. Nice, it fits with unclear manuscript
    9. Added Solo

    Bar 63, Alto/Viola 1, two first notes durations corrected (like Basso)

    Bar 1, BC, "7 6" is more likely assigned to the second note F#
    Bars 13-15/53-55, Violin. G.R. did corrections to these bars, but as it sounded special to me as well, I thought there were something worth to leave as it is, I took care to report in the score exactly the accidentals in the manuscripts. The bar 53 has more details (slurs), this suggests the F# is a more careful notation than in bar 13. In both bars 15 and 55, the C# is explicit.

    3. KYRIE II
    Instruments are derivated from the voices
    Bar 11, Soprano durations not readable but corrected like theme (dotted eighth, sixteenth)
    Bar 14, Alto, F -> F#
    Bar 36, Soprano, b indicated, B -> Bb
    Bar 37, Alto, B -> Bb

    4. GLORIA
    Bar 24 : Soprano, D -> E, note head no so ambiguous, solved by 9 in BC, good point

    1. b -> #
    Bar 20, Soprano, "Tutti" is written, Solo/Tutti added were appropriate, and in other bars

    9. QUONIAM
    Bar 20, Tenore/Viola "D B" -> "E C"
    Bar 34, Soprano, unclear note head B/A, likely B
    Bar 45, Alto, Seconde note clearly B. Yes, C fits better. I leave B for now.

    10. AMEN
    Here is What I can read in the manuscript :
    Bar 14,
    Soprano, part of E is visible
    Alto, 4th beat looks like an eighth E, then the text 'men' at 1st beat of bar 15
    Bar 15,
    Tenore, clearly a half A
    Basso, at the 3rd beat, part of an eighth G is visible

    None of the 3 proposals seems to fit perfectly :
    1) the Bass has a G
    2) the Soprano has a E
    3) yes E, but not a sixteenth

    Other things :
    1. Bar 14, 64 in BC but minor, yes, error in manuscript (?)
    2. Bar 36, yes the Basso and BC have a quarter C
    3. Bar 51, right, but the Tenore has clearly the sixteenth F, error in manuscript (?), the start of that motive has the two variants, Soprano has F, but G fits better with Alto, closer voice
    4. Bar 53, right, the Tenore has a quarter D
    5. Bar 61, yes natural sign in BC


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2008


    Sorry for my silence. I'm deep in research but the Zelenka project is still alive & kicking! The concert with ZWV 3 and 6 is planned for November 21, 2009. We are used to practicing before receiving funding; it has never failed us yet and so we hope it won't fail us this time, too :-) 4 days ago more than 500 people came to our concert with C. Ph. E. Bach's Johannespassion, which bodes well for talks with potential sponsors.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: ZWV 6 Missa Fidei

    A very clean scan of the manuscript is now available:,_Z..._Jan_Dismas%29

    I'm revising the score; when finished, I'll put everything, including parts etc on IMSLP. There have been quite a few mistakes. For example, the very first entry of 2 Oboes + Bassoon in Kyrie 1 is actually in C Minor, and not in C Major, as we performed it twice :-)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: ZWV 6 Missa Fidei

    Alright. I put everything on IMSLP (score and parts). but it's not yet available:,_Z...s)#IMSLP389857

    Here's the link to the full score with editorial comments:

    Here's an archive with all the instrumental parts:

    Glad this is finally done :-) Now -- to the Missa by Butz (Buz)!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    York + Bournemouth UK

    Default Re: ZWV 6 Missa Fidei

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwro View Post
    Glad this is finally done :-) Now -- to the Missa by Butz (Buz)!
    ^Ooh nice!

    Will enjoy looking at your Missa Fidei compilation whilst at work tomorrow (shh!).. I of course mean during my break time

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