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Thread: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Well done on this, the typesetting is great.

    Regarding bar 13/14, I agree with Elwro. Bar 13 just looks like a 'typo'. Zelenka has corrected it in pencil. Bar 14 is odd, but I would assume that this is also an error as it is inconsistent with the rest of the music. I think the note has just been put on the wrong line of the staff. Ive seen this a few times in Dresden scores where there are lots of C clefs. Sometimes when parts are duplicated, while copying one line into the next, the composer forgets about the different clefs.

    Just a couple of hopefully helpful observations - I noticed that you may need to remove the slur in the last beat of bar 21. The manuscript has only the daggers there, it's a complete change of articulation in the strings. I think the forte marking is also just on those dagger notes, not before. You could in theory save paper space by merging the soprano and alto lines, for a practical performance you don't need those lines separated out even though that's how it looks in the original.

    I've been working on the large Credo movement if that's any help to anyone.
    Last edited by Rik1; 02-03-2016 at 11:05 AM.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rik1 View Post
    Well done on this, the typesetting is great.

    Regarding bar 13/14, I agree with Elwro. Bar 13 just looks like a 'typo'. Zelenka has corrected it in pencil. Bar 14 is odd, but I would assume that this is also an error as it is inconsistent with the rest of the music. I think the note has just been put on the wrong line of the staff. Ive seen this a few times in Dresden scores where there are lots of C clefs. Sometimes when parts are duplicated, while copying one line into the next, the composer forgets about the different clefs.

    Just a couple of hopefully helpful observations - I noticed that you may need to remove the slur in the last beat of bar 21. The manuscript has only the daggers there, it's a complete change of articulation in the strings. I think the forte marking is also just on those dagger notes, not before. You could in theory save paper space by merging the soprano and alto lines, for a practical performance you don't need those lines separated out even though that's how it looks in the original.

    I've been working on the large Credo movement if that's any help to anyone.
    Thanks for pointing that out! Totally missed my eye, and it happened because I used copy & paste so much.
    The S & A merger did cross my mind indeed, I might take that on too. All the expanded arpeggiations make it unwieldy - I can easily see why Zelenka 'bis'-ed them!

    I've already uploaded it on to IMSLP, not entirely sure how to remove and re-upload...

    Good luck with the Credo to end all Credos

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwro View Post
    Just for kicks, look at the very last pages of Poppe's "Missa S. Antonii Paduani":
    http://digital.slub-dresden.de/filea.../448849178.pdf

    Take a look at the Benedictus (it's at the very end, after Dona nobis pacem!). Again, sopran doubles the alto, while the strings have something like an ostinato... but the basso and tenor sing two imitative lines also!

    edit: wasn't it Zelenka who copied Poppe's manuscript?
    Nice find!!
    He didn't copy it, but made lots of alterations&additions in red ink, according to this page on Stockigt's online resource, hofkirche catalog 1765 (the copyist, Horn identifies as 'ZS 1'). It also says that the 'NB Benedictus quaere Folio 23' mark, that Zelenka makes before the Agnus Dei, refers to Benedictus which is now at the end of the Pisani Mass ((ZWV40) http://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/89623/1/).
    Which begs the question, what was this 'Folio 21' Benedictus intended for? **

    Would be great to study it and compare to ZWV 21.. also would be great to actually hear some of F.L.Poppe's stuff, it seems to have been quite inspiring!

    *Edit: SLUB are raising funds to carry out restoration work on this very Mass. Here's a link for it, and a number of other projects. Click on the images to get a few nice high-res, close up photos (including Zelenka's red ink additions).

    **Edit 2: At the end this is written: 'Osanna Da Capo | Folio 21'. So, the Osanna section from 2 pages earlier. The reference in Stockigt's online Hofkirche Catalog to ZWV 40 from Pisani's Mass is possibly an error. She doesn't mention this particular Benedictus, but states this: "At the time of viewing this source, Zelenka’s autogr. of a Benedictus setting [ZWV 40] was kept at the conclusion of the score." Seeing the existing set of parts would help clear things up.
    Last edited by Xanaseb; 07-03-2016 at 04:54 PM. Reason: ZS 1, not Zelenka, copied the Poppe-Mass

  4. #14
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Rik1, that's great to hear! I'm now swamped with work on some cantatas by G.A. Benda; then I'll finish the b.c. for the Kyrie from Tobias Butz's mass, and then I'll come back to this project, namely, Kyrie 2.

    Who knows -- maybe someday we'll be have the full score / parts of the whole thing

  5. #15

    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanaseb View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out! Totally missed my eye, and it happened because I used copy & paste so much.
    The S & A merger did cross my mind indeed, I might take that on too. All the expanded arpeggiations make it unwieldy - I can easily see why Zelenka 'bis'-ed them!

    I've already uploaded it on to IMSLP, not entirely sure how to remove and re-upload...

    Good luck with the Credo to end all Credos
    Replacing files at IMSLP is very easy. You have to click on the little number #413298 near the download arrow and then just follow the instructions.
    Added: The copyist of the Poppe mass is not Zelenka, according to W. Horn it is the Schreiber ZS 1
    Last edited by Notenschreiber; 03-03-2016 at 05:00 PM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Replacing files at IMSLP is very easy. You have to click on the little number #413298 near the download arrow and then just follow the instructions.
    Added: The copyist of the Poppe mass is not Zelenka, according to W. Horn it is the Schreiber ZS 1
    Thank-you, and thanks to you and Carolus for the IMSLP page edits last week, you are lightning-fast mods, doing a great service

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    I now need to edit another cantata by G.A.Benda (for its probably first modern performance), but I am tinkering with the 2nd Kyrie from time to time. Myself, I could never figure out exactly what's going on purely by ear. So if anyone's curious, the exposition of the fugue in the choir is finished. The following is a link to the current version of the score (don't mind the orchestral 'parts', they'll appear some day ) https://www.dropbox.com/s/n33fwbowvw...yrie2.pdf?dl=0

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    The Osanna fugue Any comments appreciated again.
    For easier performance, I expanded out the bis/repeat in bar 26, as per Elwro's suggestion (thanks!).
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v51mafv8ia...ore__.pdf?dl=0

    Next up the Sanctus - and we'll have a full section of the MOS sorted!

    Sebastian

  9. #19

    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    I realized some differences between your Osanna edition and the urtext edition at Breitkopf:

    m.25 Ob1/S Half note d instead of e
    Ob2/Vl2 Last quarter note g instead of f

    m.28 Ob1 3. quarter note g instead of a
    Viola 2. quarter note a, then half note g

    According to the editors critical report he corrected the autograph in m.28, following the vocal parts.
    Last edited by Notenschreiber; 17-04-2016 at 10:32 PM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Missa Omnium Sanctorum (completed: Kyrie 1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Notenschreiber View Post
    I realized some differences between your Osanna edition and the urtext edition at Breitkopf:

    m.25 Ob1/S Half note d instead of e
    Ob2/Vl2 Last quarter note g instead of f

    m.28 Ob1 3. quarter note g instead of a
    Viola 2. quarter note a, then half note g

    According to the editors critical report he corrected the autograph in m.28, following the vocal parts.
    Thanks for this!
    The bar 25 errors somehow escaped me.
    As for the Breitkopf edition of bar 28, that needs some consideration, but they're probably right to do that. It was hard to know what to do in the violins because his note lengths didn't add up, so I decided to create a different rhythm... perhaps needlessly.
    I am trying to hear what Bernius and Viktora do in their recordings, but it's somewhat difficult.

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