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brulgio
05-07-2013, 06:53 PM
Does anybody know where I can find the score of Te Deum ZWV 146?

The other Te Deum (ZWV 145) is published by Carus Verlag, but not this one ...

Thanks,

Best wishes everybody from Italy,

- G.

skiaouros
13-07-2013, 07:57 AM
Hello,

Like you I'm expecting it, since 2000, as it is "in preparation" as written on the CD Carus 83.148.

It would be faster to order from the Slub a digital copy of the original manuscript Mus. 2358-D-48,
and edit it yourself.

SK

djdresden
13-07-2013, 03:39 PM
An edition of the Te Deum ZWV 146 has been prepared by Reinhold Kubik, and should be available through the website of Das Erbe Deutsche Musik: http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_I/Musikwissenschaft/EDM/

Collegium 1704 performed the work last year. I am sure the parts could probably be supplied by orchestra, if asked for.
http://www.collegium1704.com/

skiaouros
13-07-2013, 06:49 PM
In 2005, when I asked the EDM, the answer was: the transcriptions are not going to be published, should be studied in Kassel, Deutsches Musikgeschichtliches Archiv, or Tuebingen, and should not be copied.

In 2011, Václav Luks did it right, see http://www.ceskapozice.cz/en/news/society/new-year%CA%BCs-eve-collegium-1704
"Over the years, the ink has faded, so many of the notes are missing"
"Fortunately, Reinhard Kubik, a noted German musicologist, made a copy of the manuscript about 30 years ago, when it was still legible"

Monika11
13-09-2014, 05:08 PM
Hello to all !

I am a little bit confused ! I heard this great Te Deum ZWV 146 on Youtube. What a pity that there is no score ! I would love to analyze it thoroughly.

then I looked out for ZWV 145. And I found this link:

https://www.gramola.at/de/shop/produkte/alte+musik/carus/rademann,kammerchor,b.orch./zelenka,heinichen/151/

What is this Te Deum a due Cori ? Is this ZWV 146 ? In the recording I have not heard a second choir ? ;) Indeed Zelenka uses 5 voices. But why shoud somebody label a piece as "due cori" on a CD if it isn't ?

Can anyone bring some light in this ???

Kindest regards to all from Salzburg

Monika

P.S. Very interesting is the paralleism of the last woman voice terzetto in ZWV 146 with the Aria "Buß und Reu" by Bach !

Monika11
13-09-2014, 05:19 PM
I have now found in the Catalogue of works, that the Te Deum ZWV 146 is indeed for due cori. But this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oALxb2BQlY

is the same as Vaclav Luks performs here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwI5nPDwp1M

which is labelled as "ZWV 146", but has only one choir ... ???

skiaouros
13-09-2014, 09:22 PM
CV 27.197/00 Voraussichtlich lieferbar ab 01.2015

Monika11
14-09-2014, 07:13 AM
Thanks a lot !

I suppose this was my acoustic laps ! I have listened to ZWV 146 again and this is definately a work for double choir, even if you do not recognize it easily. So everything is clear and even the score is coming ! Thanks !:rolleyes:

Osbert Parsley
29-09-2014, 06:34 AM
Not an answer about where to find the score, but with regard to the double choir issue, see:

http://www.bachnetwork.co.uk/ub9/UB9-Stockigt.pdf

Monika11
03-10-2014, 10:21 PM
Dear Osbert,

thanks a lot for this good link!
Anyway I do not yet really understand what the fact is.

Janice Stockight says:
"Chorus I comprises SSATB vocal soloists (two solo sopranos and an alto are required only in one movement which is set as a vocal trio for SSA) while Chorus II consisted of ripienists. "

Does this mean, that the Chorus II is the regular chorus and the Chorus I is the soloist ensemble?
If it is that, why did Zelenka label it this way? Why did not name it as usual with Soli SSATB and Chorus?
Does it possibly have to do with the fact that he writes an aria for three solo voices here?
I am eager to understand this point.

Greetings,
Monika

Monika11
03-10-2014, 10:27 PM
The list of works mentions for ZWV 146;

SAATB, soli & ch.I; SATB, ch.II; 4Tpt.; Timp.; 2Fl.; 2Ob.;*2Bn.; 2Vn.;*Va.; B.c.

Osbert Parsley
24-11-2014, 02:03 AM
Monika,

Sorry not to reply before this, but I did not return to the forum since posting that link.

I think the answer is that the norm in eighteenth-century Germany was that choirs tended to be very small. This raises the whole controversy over Joshua Rifkin's theory (with which I agree) that Bach's choir (and by extension those of his contemporaries) usually consisted of just the soloists - perhaps with one or two extra voices per part being added very occasionally. This makes sense if you consider how very clearly soloistic the German cantatas of even the generation just before him are, even in their choruses (Buxtehude for example).
I am not sure, but I think Zelenka wrote this work for two choirs, one of which had the weight of the solo work placed on it and the other one sometimes used to double the first choir and sometimes used to sing its own independent choral "part". If so, it would seem that he envisaged (or perhaps was directed to write for) two choirs consisting of single voices only for each part.
There are members of this forum who will be able to answer this question with much greater knowledge and authority than me.

I have always wondered how large Zelenka's choir in Dresden was for his Masses especially, since he retired (or died?) before the huge Frauenkirch was completed and, as I understand it, the Court's Catholic church in Dresden until then was quite small. Perhaps we should start considering Zelenka Mass performances with only the soloists singing the choruses or maybe with the soloists and only one extra singer on each part.

Xanaseb
26-11-2014, 12:18 AM
Another somewhat related question I'd like to put forward is if Zelenka ever wrote a polyphonic choral piece for more than 4 parts (I suppose this Te Deum sort of counts?).
As far as I know, he did not (his mastery of 4 parts was dazzling enough, I'd posit!). There may be practical reasons as to why this was the case, perhaps.

I've always liked the way that the recordings of Zelenka's music over the past couple of decades have been made. In the majority of cases, they don't exaggerate the number of singers per part, unlike many other baroque recordings of the past few decades.

cheers,

Seb

****08/09/2015 EDIT: I have since found the answer to my question - Zelenka composed a *7-part*(SAATTBB!) choral fugue for the 'Qui tollis' of his most early mass, Missa Sanctae Ceciliae (zwv 1). It was used again in Attendite et videte (zwv 59) for the 'Dignus es, Domine'.
Hear it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhZ6TB3BOs , and on the 'Sepulcro' Music of 18th Prague CD recording - wonderful ********

djdresden
26-11-2014, 07:46 PM
From Jan Stockigt's report of her paper on the 1733 Bautzen Te Deum, see the relevent thread and of course, above:
http://www.jdzelenka.net/forums/showthread.php?435-Zelenka-the-singer

"Despite Zelenka’s statement ‘à 2 Chori’ this is not a usual polychoral work. Chorus I comprises SSATB vocal soloists (two solo sopranos and an alto are required only in one movement which is set as a vocal trio for SSA) while Chorus II consisted of ripienists."

We know exactly how many singers sang the Te Deum in 1733, their names etc. The five soloists sang Chorus I, and the four ripienists Chorus II. That was the size of Zelenka's vocal ensemble, one voice per part. Also, we can now almost certainly state who the singers were for the first performance in 1731.

Our full article on the 1733 Bautzen Te Deum will not appear in UK Bach Network as planned. Instead, we are submitting it to another journal. I'll keep you posted.