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Elwro
24-01-2016, 11:56 AM
It's a disgrace that one cannot easily gain access to the score of one of Zelenka's masterpieces. I went to a few sheet music stores in Europe and was always given an offer of trying to order a score for a few hundred Euros, but no guarantee (i.e., I'd have to wait and see if it's even possible at all.) The options I found myself online suggested I can try to 'rent' performance material, for an undisclosed price. Any sensible person will refuse to participate in such a nonsensical practice.

The manuscript has been made freely available. The project is, then, to prepare an open access score of the Missa Omnium Sanctorum. I have no illusions I'll be able to complete the project in a reasonable amount of time, since I'm just a hobbyist who is also preparing scores of other composers for choral performances. (And it's all but guaranteed the amateur choir I'm in will never attempt anything like the M.O.S.) But perhaps some parts of the Missa can be useful for someone.

I will be using Lilypond. If any fellow Zelenka typesetters would like to help, please post in this thread! (I want to typeset Kyrie 2 and the Credo next, so I'm calling dibs on that.)

So, without further ado, here's Kyrie eleison 1 from the Missa Omnium Sanctorum: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzfzgss2r3t6e7i/01_Kyrie1.pdf?dl=0

Notenschreiber
24-01-2016, 11:55 PM
Here https://www.breitkopf.com/search?__clear=&q=zelenka+zwv+21 you can buy a full score (219 €) and a piano score (21,90 €) . I don´t have tried to order the scores, but it should work, i think. On the other hand, parts are only available by rental. This is very unsatisfactory. The edition is from 1989, it is probably an "urtext edition" and should therefore be public domain in the EU. Some libraries have this volume of "Erbe deutscher Musik", so it can be uploaded at IMSLP, for example. To extract parts by OMR should be not very difficult.

Xanaseb
26-01-2016, 10:19 AM
It's a disgrace that one cannot easily gain access to the score of one of Zelenka's masterpieces. I went to a few sheet music stores in Europe and was always given an offer of trying to order a score for a few hundred Euros, but no guarantee (i.e., I'd have to wait and see if it's even possible at all.) The options I found myself online suggested I can try to 'rent' performance material, for an undisclosed price. Any sensible person will refuse to participate in such a nonsensical practice.


This is truth indeed, I found the same when searching for ZWV 20 Missa Dei Filii for performance recently. Both score and parts were very difficult to source. In the end, the parts were bought off Ensemble Inégal, and the score was rented at a price which was haggled down from the ~£1000 (!) which was quoted to us by a hire & copyright company in London.

Creating open access sheet music of Zelenka's 'greats' is a very good idea. I am very new to typesetting, but I can give a go at the wonderful Benedictus.

Elwro
26-01-2016, 11:07 AM
That Benedictus is one the truly immortal bits of the Missa! It'd be great to see it in a modern score.

Now, I was really surprised with Notenschreiber's information. Really, stuff published in 1989 is Public Domain? As far as I know, according to the EU laws the editor's rights are protected until 70 years after his or her death. I'd be very glad if I was mistaken, of course!

Notenschreiber
26-01-2016, 06:52 PM
May be it´s a problem to buy a score of ZWV 20, it is out of stock (see here: https://www.breitkopf.com/search?__clear=&q=zelenka+zwv+20)
But many libraries have the vol. 100 from "Erbe deutscher Musik", where it is contained, so one can loan the score.
Much more difficult is it to get parts!
Urtext editions are protected in Germnay for 25 years. Parts of it, for example the foreword, has a protection for 70 years after the
death of the author of the text. (Sometimes it may be difficult to decide, if the realization of the continuo is protected as original work
of its author, but this is usually not part of an urtext edition).

Xanaseb
20-02-2016, 01:47 AM
OK, this was great fun. My first typeset score (I picked the shortest & most intimately orchestrated movement on purpose!), the Benedictus ZWV 21:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5zpgjxdcjjw483/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Benedictus.pdf?dl=0

I am now going on to the leaping whirl of the Osanna fugue, and aim to do the Sanctus afterwards.

Edit: I would appreciate any thoughts about the note in the Alto in bar 14. In the autograph manuscript, both in this bar and bar 13, the notes written for Alto are different to what is being sung by the Soprano. I personally like the harmony of G (Soprano) and E (Alto) that is notated in bar 14. But, after consulting both Inégal's recording and Collegium 1704's live youtube one (who used Inégal's score...), it's clear that they don't have the two voices diverge, but stick to the one note, G. Therefore I've used that note, in brackets, in the typeset.
Those two bars for S&A are very confusing. They seem to have been penciled (?) in, or are certainly written with a different instrument. Could be a Zelenka-error I guess.

Elwro
21-02-2016, 11:54 AM
Congratulations on the score!

If we look at what's written with black ink (?), then in bar 13 there should be a d-a fifth between the alto and the soprano. This is an obvious mistake due to the A Minor chord in the BC and violin. It probably results from Zelenka thinking "I need to write the same note in both voices here" and forgetting for that instant that the second voice is in a different clef (it would be unison otherwise!). The penciled 'a' in that bar is a correction. Interesting that it suggests an e-g third in the next bar :-) I don't see any musical / rhetorical reasons for that and I'd suggest it's again a mistake.

I'll modify the thread title accordingly ;)

edit: Unfortunately I don't know how to do that...

Xanaseb
21-02-2016, 04:55 PM
Congratulations on the score!
I'll modify the thread title accordingly ;)

edit: Unfortunately I don't know how to do that...

Ah, yes, I tried to change a Live Performances thread, where I had originally titled it "West Germany concerts" to "Western Germany" (I realised that it evoked pre-1990 Germanies...), but it only changed the bold secondary title (the one on your actual post).... Not sure what would be the best thing to do about that.

Thanks for the thoughts on the S & A - I thought that may be the case. It's nice to know that he wasn't always on the ball with things ;)

Notenschreiber
22-02-2016, 10:11 AM
In his first editon Wolfgang Horn writes in the critical report:

" 13,14 A: d´, e´ statt a´, g´. T.13 ist im Autograph der erste Takt auf einer neuen Seite, der Ton d´ wird durch die Harmonie als falsch
erwiesen. Mit Sicherheit wollte Zelenka hier nicht von der Unisono-Führung der Singstimmen abweichen"

Accordingly his edition has a´ in bar 13 and g´ in bar 14 in the alto voice.

Elwro
02-03-2016, 09:18 AM
Just for kicks, look at the very last pages of Poppe's "Missa S. Antonii Paduani":
http://digital.slub-dresden.de/fileadmin/data/448849178/448849178_tif/jpegs/448849178.pdf

Take a look at the Benedictus (it's at the very end, after Dona nobis pacem!). Again, sopran doubles the alto, while the strings have something like an ostinato... but the basso and tenor sing two imitative lines also!

edit: wasn't it Zelenka who copied Poppe's manuscript?

Rik1
02-03-2016, 10:57 AM
Well done on this, the typesetting is great.

Regarding bar 13/14, I agree with Elwro. Bar 13 just looks like a 'typo'. Zelenka has corrected it in pencil. Bar 14 is odd, but I would assume that this is also an error as it is inconsistent with the rest of the music. I think the note has just been put on the wrong line of the staff. Ive seen this a few times in Dresden scores where there are lots of C clefs. Sometimes when parts are duplicated, while copying one line into the next, the composer forgets about the different clefs.

Just a couple of hopefully helpful observations - I noticed that you may need to remove the slur in the last beat of bar 21. The manuscript has only the daggers there, it's a complete change of articulation in the strings. I think the forte marking is also just on those dagger notes, not before. You could in theory save paper space by merging the soprano and alto lines, for a practical performance you don't need those lines separated out even though that's how it looks in the original.

I've been working on the large Credo movement if that's any help to anyone.

Xanaseb
02-03-2016, 12:06 PM
Well done on this, the typesetting is great.

Regarding bar 13/14, I agree with Elwro. Bar 13 just looks like a 'typo'. Zelenka has corrected it in pencil. Bar 14 is odd, but I would assume that this is also an error as it is inconsistent with the rest of the music. I think the note has just been put on the wrong line of the staff. Ive seen this a few times in Dresden scores where there are lots of C clefs. Sometimes when parts are duplicated, while copying one line into the next, the composer forgets about the different clefs.

Just a couple of hopefully helpful observations - I noticed that you may need to remove the slur in the last beat of bar 21. The manuscript has only the daggers there, it's a complete change of articulation in the strings. I think the forte marking is also just on those dagger notes, not before. You could in theory save paper space by merging the soprano and alto lines, for a practical performance you don't need those lines separated out even though that's how it looks in the original.

I've been working on the large Credo movement if that's any help to anyone.


Thanks for pointing that out! Totally missed my eye, and it happened because I used copy & paste so much.
The S & A merger did cross my mind indeed, I might take that on too. All the expanded arpeggiations make it unwieldy - I can easily see why Zelenka 'bis'-ed them!

I've already uploaded it on to IMSLP, not entirely sure how to remove and re-upload...

Good luck with the Credo to end all Credos ;)

Xanaseb
02-03-2016, 01:20 PM
Just for kicks, look at the very last pages of Poppe's "Missa S. Antonii Paduani":
http://digital.slub-dresden.de/fileadmin/data/448849178/448849178_tif/jpegs/448849178.pdf

Take a look at the Benedictus (it's at the very end, after Dona nobis pacem!). Again, sopran doubles the alto, while the strings have something like an ostinato... but the basso and tenor sing two imitative lines also!

edit: wasn't it Zelenka who copied Poppe's manuscript?

:eek: Nice find!!
He didn't copy it, but made lots of alterations&additions in red ink, according to this page on Stockigt's online resource, hofkirche catalog 1765 (http://hofkirchecatalogo1765.mcm.unimelb.edu.au/index.php/the-catalogue/all-volumes/article/349-poppe-franc-esc-o) (the copyist, Horn identifies as 'ZS 1'). It also says that the 'NB Benedictus quaere Folio 23' mark, that Zelenka makes before the Agnus Dei, refers to Benedictus which is now at the end of the Pisani Mass ((ZWV40) http://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/89623/1/).
Which begs the question, what was this 'Folio 21' Benedictus intended for? :confused: **

Would be great to study it and compare to ZWV 21.. also would be great to actually hear some of F.L.Poppe's stuff, it seems to have been quite inspiring!

*Edit: SLUB are raising funds to carry out restoration work on this very Mass. Here's a link (http://www.slub-dresden.de/ueber-uns/foerderer-sponsoren/buchpatenschaften/buchpatenobjekte/musik/) for it, and a number of other projects. Click on the images to get a few nice high-res, close up photos (including Zelenka's red ink additions).

**Edit 2: At the end this is written: 'Osanna Da Capo | Folio 21'. So, the Osanna section from 2 pages earlier. The reference in Stockigt's online Hofkirche Catalog to ZWV 40 from Pisani's Mass is possibly an error. She doesn't mention this particular Benedictus, but states this: "At the time of viewing this source, Zelenka’s autogr. of a Benedictus setting [ZWV 40] was kept at the conclusion of the score." Seeing the existing set of parts would help clear things up.

Elwro
03-03-2016, 09:40 AM
Rik1, that's great to hear! I'm now swamped with work on some cantatas by G.A. Benda; then I'll finish the b.c. for the Kyrie from Tobias Butz's mass, and then I'll come back to this project, namely, Kyrie 2.

Who knows -- maybe someday we'll be have the full score / parts of the whole thing ;)

Notenschreiber
03-03-2016, 04:48 PM
Thanks for pointing that out! Totally missed my eye, and it happened because I used copy & paste so much.
The S & A merger did cross my mind indeed, I might take that on too. All the expanded arpeggiations make it unwieldy - I can easily see why Zelenka 'bis'-ed them!

I've already uploaded it on to IMSLP, not entirely sure how to remove and re-upload...

Good luck with the Credo to end all Credos ;)

Replacing files at IMSLP is very easy. You have to click on the little number #413298 near the download arrow and then just follow the instructions.
Added: The copyist of the Poppe mass is not Zelenka, according to W. Horn it is the Schreiber ZS 1

Xanaseb
03-03-2016, 05:51 PM
Replacing files at IMSLP is very easy. You have to click on the little number #413298 near the download arrow and then just follow the instructions.
Added: The copyist of the Poppe mass is not Zelenka, according to W. Horn it is the Schreiber ZS 1

Thank-you, and thanks to you and Carolus for the IMSLP page edits last week, you are lightning-fast mods, doing a great service :)

Elwro
06-04-2016, 09:25 AM
I now need to edit another cantata by G.A.Benda (for its probably first modern performance), but I am tinkering with the 2nd Kyrie from time to time. Myself, I could never figure out exactly what's going on purely by ear. So if anyone's curious, the exposition of the fugue in the choir is finished. The following is a link to the current version of the score (don't mind the orchestral 'parts', they'll appear some day ;)) https://www.dropbox.com/s/n33fwbowvwhm2ob/03_Kyrie2.pdf?dl=0

Xanaseb
16-04-2016, 11:48 PM
The Osanna fugue :) Any comments appreciated again.
For easier performance, I expanded out the bis/repeat in bar 26, as per Elwro's suggestion (thanks!).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v51mafv8ia2wtye/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score__.pdf?dl=0

Next up the Sanctus - and we'll have a full section of the MOS sorted!

Sebastian

Notenschreiber
17-04-2016, 02:06 PM
I realized some differences between your Osanna edition and the urtext edition at Breitkopf:

m.25 Ob1/S Half note d instead of e
Ob2/Vl2 Last quarter note g instead of f

m.28 Ob1 3. quarter note g instead of a
Viola 2. quarter note a, then half note g

According to the editors critical report he corrected the autograph in m.28, following the vocal parts.

Xanaseb
18-04-2016, 12:29 AM
I realized some differences between your Osanna edition and the urtext edition at Breitkopf:

m.25 Ob1/S Half note d instead of e
Ob2/Vl2 Last quarter note g instead of f

m.28 Ob1 3. quarter note g instead of a
Viola 2. quarter note a, then half note g

According to the editors critical report he corrected the autograph in m.28, following the vocal parts.

Thanks for this!
The bar 25 errors somehow escaped me.
As for the Breitkopf edition of bar 28, that needs some consideration, but they're probably right to do that. It was hard to know what to do in the violins because his note lengths didn't add up, so I decided to create a different rhythm... perhaps needlessly.
I am trying to hear what Bernius and Viktora do in their recordings, but it's somewhat difficult.

Elwro
21-04-2016, 09:56 AM
Congratulations on finishing the next movement ;) I'll try to examine bar 28 closely in the score and recordings in the coming days.

Xanaseb
25-04-2016, 10:33 PM
OK, I've edited those bars.
Also, for violins I & II in bar 29 I have retained Zelenka's specified notes for the last two beats (violin I) and the last three beats (violin II). Whether this is the best resolution, I do not know. Hopefully things are now closer to the Breitkopf Urtext :)
Here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wgc9pdhy0gteq0u/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score_.pdf?dl=0

Notenschreiber
26-04-2016, 10:50 AM
There are still some differences in last bars. Greetings Notenschreiber.20

Elwro
26-04-2016, 10:57 AM
I don't agree with bar 28 in either Seb's or the Breitkopf edition :-) Now I see there was already some discussion about it. But in my opinion it's better to keep the viola part as it is written, namely "g4 a2 g4". You cant really say that changing it to "g4 a4 g2" is "following the vocal parts". And the oboe's 3rd quarter note is clearly written as "a". In my opinion such a dissonance doesn't pose too much of a problem and in fact I think it's something that happens in Zelenka. If we really wanted to "follow the vocal parts" we should also change the next measure in Oboe 1, so that it would really follow the altos. But somehow no one is suggesting that :-) In my opinion, if we're not doing it here, why do it one measure earlier, if the manuscript is clear?

edit: just noticed the soprano-alto parallel fifths in bar 27 :-)

Rik1
26-04-2016, 05:48 PM
I don't agree with bar 28 in either Seb's or the Breitkopf edition :-) Now I see there was already some discussion about it. But in my opinion it's better to keep the viola part as it is written, namely "g4 a2 g4". You cant really say that changing it to "g4 a4 g2" is "following the vocal parts". And the oboe's 3rd quarter note is clearly written as "a". In my opinion such a dissonance doesn't pose too much of a problem and in fact I think it's something that happens in Zelenka. If we really wanted to "follow the vocal parts" we should also change the next measure in Oboe 1, so that it would really follow the altos. But somehow no one is suggesting that :-) In my opinion, if we're not doing it here, why do it one measure earlier, if the manuscript is clear?

edit: just noticed the soprano-alto parallel fifths in bar 27 :-)

Thought I'd chime in as this is interesting. I'd agree with Elwro actually. It's an awkward passage and looks odd on the manuscript. But I don't personally see how changing the oboe 3rd beat to 'G' (as it shows 'A' in the manuscript) and having the viola part as "g4 a4 g2" improves it that much.

What's odd is that the note G in the Alto and Tenor lines clash with the figures in the continuo bass line which is showing a 5/3 chord on the F second beat. This suggests it should still be a 5/3 on beat 3. If you take out the vocal lines, all the orchestral parts match and fit the harmony in the figures. This would suggest the vocal lines are wrong. But changing the Alto and Tenor lines would break up the horizontal melodic lines which are important in this style of writing. As you'd have to change too many notes of the orchestra parts to try and smooth out these clashes, the editing is then maybe going a bit too far towards re-writing Zelenka

So, as it isn't obvious if one of the notes is a 'typo' it might be best to just keep it as the manuscript and put it down to the fact Zelenka is more concerned with the horizontal vocal lines working for him than the vertical harmonic movement of the orchestra.

Very interesting, and not something I've noticed in the other movements.

Elwro
26-04-2016, 08:55 PM
Xanaseb, first, thanks very much for your work! But there's something more. You write "for violins I & II in bar 29 I have retained Zelenka's specified notes" but I think you have not. I just consulted the score. It is clear to me that bar 28 starts with an eighth note in both instruments and continues with the syncopated quarters. I think the syncopations are crucial for how the whole thing sounds. So bar 28-29, violin 2, are "c8 c4 c4 c4 c8~c8 c4 f8 f4 e8 d8", and for violin 1 they're "e8 c4 c4 c4 c8~c8 c4 c8 c4. c8".

Thanks again for making the score available to everyone!

@Rik1, thanks for the very interesting ideas!

Xanaseb
26-04-2016, 11:01 PM
Hi everyone,

I think we have a final copy:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix7fr76z68mn5l/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score.pdf?dl=0

Elwro: Yes, that was more or less how I actually typesetted them in the first version (see the first dropbox link), but I needlessly changed my mind after hearing about the Breitkopf edition 'following the vocal parts' ... but that was only for bar 28, not bar 29, so really I shouldn't have changed those violins in bar 29 at all. My bar 28 was totally off however due to my lack of musical experience (I misinterpreted the first two notes, which led me to make the next notes dotted...)
But now it is fine, I believe. It's good to learn! Do let me know if I got it right, at last ;).

Notenschreiber: thanks for the image, that was of great help in clearing up things!

Rik1: Wow, pretty interesting stuff. This is only a few bars which could be easily looked over (in fact, I *did* look them over easily). But, they are just perfectly written to bring an extremely satisfying ending to an awesome fugal setting. The unhinged nature is very inspired, just like so much of Zelenka's late Masses.

Rik1
27-04-2016, 12:22 PM
Hi everyone,

I think we have a final copy:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix7fr76z68mn5l/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score.pdf?dl=0

Elwro: Yes, that was more or less how I actually typesetted them in the first version (see the first dropbox link), but I needlessly changed my mind after hearing about the Breitkopf edition 'following the vocal parts' ... but that was only for bar 28, not bar 29, so really I shouldn't have changed those violins in bar 29 at all. My bar 28 was totally off however due to my lack of musical experience (I misinterpreted the first two notes, which led me to make the next notes dotted...)
But now it is fine, I believe. It's good to learn! Do let me know if I got it right, at last ;).

Notenschreiber: thanks for the image, that was of great help in clearing up things!

Rik1: Wow, pretty interesting stuff. This is only a few bars which could be easily looked over (in fact, I *did* look them over easily). But, they are just perfectly written to bring an extremely satisfying ending to an awesome fugal setting. The unhinged nature is very inspired, just like so much of Zelenka's late Masses.

Yes, it now looks exactly as the manuscript. Such an odd ending now seeing it complete, the orchestra and choir moving through the suspensions at different times very slowly (adagio) and then coming together by the second half of bar 29. I must admit superficially it doesn't look as slick as say a JS Bach composition but Zelenka isn't that kind of composer!

Xanaseb
27-04-2016, 12:27 PM
Hi everyone,

I think we have a final copy:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix7fr76z68mn5l/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score.pdf?dl=0


...to summarise:

In bar 28: After Rik1 & Elwro's comments, I decided against the Breitkopf version and instead used the specified autograph score notes in Oboe 1 and the Viola.

In bar 29: I corrected my violin I & II errors, to follow the score properly.

I wonder what Adam Viktora / Ensemble Inégal's score shows in these bars :)

Thank-you all,

Seb

Xanaseb
27-04-2016, 12:36 PM
Yes, it now looks exactly as the manuscript. Such an odd ending now seeing it complete, the orchestra and choir moving through the suspensions at different times very slowly (adagio) and then coming together by the second half of bar 29. I must admit superficially it doesn't look as slick as say a JS Bach composition but Zelenka isn't that kind of composer!

A case of "*** this, I want to still experiment even though I'm in my 60s" ;)

Notenschreiber
27-04-2016, 06:13 PM
Sorry, but i see still a typo in bar 26 and bar 27 of Oboe 1 and soprano:
the 4th, 5th and 6th notes should be d e f, not c d e.

Xanaseb
28-04-2016, 02:30 AM
Sorry, but i see still a typo in bar 26 and bar 27 of Oboe 1 and soprano:
the 4th, 5th and 6th notes should be d e f, not c d e.

Fixed! Thanks :o
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nix7fr76z68mn5l/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Osanna_score.pdf?dl=0

Notenschreiber
19-05-2016, 11:34 AM
Would you please upload the Osanna to IMSLP?

Xanaseb
19-05-2016, 03:46 PM
Would you please upload the Osanna to IMSLP?

I will do so tonight! :)

Seb

Notenschreiber
19-05-2016, 11:29 PM
Thanks!

Notenschreiber

Xanaseb
16-08-2016, 01:41 PM
It's been a long time, but I have the Sanctus ready. Once again, scrutiny and proof-reading would be much appreciated (hopefully with fewer issues than last time ;) ).

I have a question about the range of the baroque violins and viola - could they actually play the unison sections with the bass, even when it goes down to A (in the C2 octave) in the viola (bar 35) and B (C2) in the violins (bar 46)? Surely not, when the G string limits it to g below c' (middle C)...
Zelenka doesn't write anything to help out here, should I alter the notation to keep it within range, or is there something I'm missing?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq0knwu8cmlb7tb/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Sanctus.pdf?dl=0

Rik1
16-08-2016, 06:00 PM
It's been a long time, but I have the Sanctus ready. Once again, scrutiny and proof-reading would be much appreciated (hopefully with fewer issues than last time ;) ).

I have a question about the range of the baroque violins and viola - could they actually play the unison sections with the bass, even when it goes down to A (in the C2 octave) in the viola (bar 35) and B (C2) in the violins (bar 46)? Surely not, when the G string limits it to g below c' (middle C)...
Zelenka doesn't write anything to help out here, should I alter the notation to keep it within range, or is there something I'm missing?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq0knwu8cmlb7tb/Missa_O_S_ZWV_21_Sanctus.pdf?dl=0

Great, I'll have a look through.

When upper strings are asked to double the bass, they actually play the notes an octave higher (as in bars 78-81). It's really just short hand, but is also similar to a 'bassetto' (which Vivaldi used a lot), where bass clef appears in the violin lines. The bass clef is an indication to the player that they are now playing the bass line, but the sounding notes are an octave higher than written (including viola). I assume players at the time were used to doing this and could read all clefs, though in Dresden the copyists used to put the notes into the right clefs an octave higher. The first beat of bar 36 confirms this.

For a score, you could leave as is but for performing parts the violin and viola lines would need to be put into the appropriate clef's transposed up an octave. You might want to do it in the score anyway though to avoid the constant jumping between clefs.

Xanaseb
16-08-2016, 11:52 PM
Great, I'll have a look through.

When upper strings are asked to double the bass, they actually play the notes an octave higher (as in bars 78-81). It's really just short hand, but is also similar to a 'bassetto' (which Vivaldi used a lot), where bass clef appears in the violin lines. The bass clef is an indication to the player that they are now playing the bass line, but the sounding notes are an octave higher than written (including viola). I assume players at the time were used to doing this and could read all clefs, though in Dresden the copyists used to put the notes into the right clefs an octave higher. The first beat of bar 36 confirms this.

For a score, you could leave as is but for performing parts the violin and viola lines would need to be put into the appropriate clef's transposed up an octave. You might want to do it in the score anyway though to avoid the constant jumping between clefs.

Ah, that clears it up! Pretty logical :)