After Il Diamante was released, I wondered if and what work Adam and his orchestra would preform. Zwv 16, 61, 151 and 177 are composed 1730 and later. So I figured, he probably wanted to record his 4. Zelenka album from this period too. Only two unrecorded masses are to choose from, Zwv 14 and 15, and some smaler works.
Kyrie Zwv 14 is the movement I have listened the most in the digital libary. To know this movement is going to be availible this year is very, very happy news.
I am very grateful Adam Viktora and his orchestra are presenting Zelenka's treasures.
Yes, the autograph score was damaged at the end of WW2 together with several others of his scores. Waterdamage. Many of his surviving manuscripts were stored ... I remember it when I read it
I guess several members know this fact.
Were was many of Zelenkas surviving scores stored ?
It would surprise me if the Missa Fidei was preformed last 100 years at all, especially after 1945 since the score is damaged and how much work it is to fill in the blanc spots.
If anyone can answer you about your question, Dresden should be the best source about this matter.
Is it possible for you to upload mp3(s) from your preformance of both works?
Would be especially delighted to hear Missa Fidei live.
Good luck Leszek with the concert
Parts of soundtracks are availible now. See link above.
As expected, some arias have lot in common with his 3 last oratories.
After 1733, he didnt use horns, except from this work. And he use them differently in this work. Interesting.
Looks like you can buy it now from Nibiru. Members, it is time to use your creditcard ...
Thank you for your update on the Serenata release, Johannes. Or "Il Diamante" release to be correct...
Nibiru have announced the upcomming release here:
Im very exited about this recording.
Thank you for pointing this out. Zwv 4 we still have Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei to get our hands on. And Zwv 14, waterdamage have destoyed some of 1st.trumpet and 1st.violin part. So yes, I hope we can get those score copies.
I think when they preform Zwv 12 Missa Xaverii in Austalia, they try to get the sources djdresden mentioned.
I just wonder if Im more blind than deaf, or the other way around.
I saw the mistake at once when you mentioned it. And I agree it sounds "interesting".
The mistake is in the alto.
Bar 21 ----------->Alto play 8 1/8 notes : a-g-f-e-d-c-b-d
Now there are 6th's instead of 5th's between soprano and alto. And if you examine the score, what is left of this bar, the 4 last notes are probably d-c-b-d.
Bar 21------------>Basso: yeah, I agree I was in doubt when I wrote it. But there is a "dot" indicating an "a" . But I think this is just another water damage "thing".
So I think basso sing this notes; 1/8 'a' 1/8 'b' 1/4 'c' 1/2 'g'
I made a new midi file. I send it to Skiaouros. Sounds far better now.
Ok. Elwro, Skiaouros and me know what we are talking about, but I guess some others might read this and perhaps want to understand why and what we are discussing.
Zwv 6 Missa Fidei score is somewhat waterdamaged, especially last movement. So I had to reconstruct destroyed or partly destroyed bars; I find it more difficult to complete a fugue than other movements.
Especially bar 15 was difficult. I looked at it for 3 days before I understood what to do.
Well thats all for now.
Thank you for pointing it out for me L.W.
I edited bar 21-30 of Et resurrexit from score. I sent it to Skiaouros.
I have edited Zwv 3 (Kyrie), 6,7,8 and 14. From this experience (handwriting, errors and gaps), my impression is that Zelenka was in a hurry when he wrote all movements in Credo. And therefore errors discussed below.
When Zelenka wrote bar 21-30 he wrote the 4 part choir part first. No errors here.
Then he added violins, viola, b.c and oboes. Its in these parts the mistakes are. Therefore it is important to first look at the choir part, then correct errors in the instruments.
The viola part are almost the same as the alto part. Look how many #sharps are misssing.
Bar 25---------> oboe 1 double the viola, oboe 2 double the soprano. The error here is the missing 1/8 pause in both oboes. Compare oboes with soprano and alto part and you see what is missing, and where.
Bar 26---------> #f in violin. Yes, because alto have #f in the same beats.
Bar 26---------> oboe 1; two last notes--------->#d#d------>not e e
Bar 27---------> viola part wrong. See alto.
My guess, some gaps in oboe and viola part, when Zelenka was in a hurry. Someone else filled in these bars. Or Zelenka had a hangover.
"1. The chord on the 3rd beat of bar 26 (bar 5 in my PDF) is b MINOR, not MAJOR."
------------->Soprano d, alto #f, tenore d, basso b.----->the chord is b minor.
"2. The violins have f SHARP, not f NATURAL, etc etc."
---> Agree, explained above.
"Apart from that, I changed g to g sharp in bar 26 and c to c sharp in bar 27 in the violins. Just try it - the passages flow better :-)"
---------> Nein, njet, nei and no! Sound perfectly as it is written. Oboe parts makes the whole passage wierd. Correct them and you can hear Zelenka use the same modulation in other works as well.
"There is (for me) one worrying thing in this region of the piece, namely the tenor voice in bar 24 (bar 3 in my PDF). On the 2nd beat, the b.c. says "5", and the tenor has a "6". But it is not necessarily wrong."
-------> Look at the soprano part 2 beats before the tenore. Zelenka loves "echo's". So the tenore is correctly written. Only the "g" (written "a") 5th note in bar 24, is difficult to read. But since the cord is in e minor, and oboe 1 plays a "g", the note is probably "g".
Hope this helps.
Hi again Elwro,
With Zwv 3 and Zwv 6 you have a program that last for about 45-50 minutes.
To fill up the last 10-15 minutes, I suggest a lesser work from Zelenka's late period. In repository you find two works, Zwv 29 Chrite eleison and Zwv 167 Da pacem Domine, both unrecorded and composed for small ensemble.
I finished Zwv 6, and uploaded it for skiaouros. He already produced mp3's of the whole work. Guess you have a score from him soon.
You liked the 4th movement. So did Zelenka I guess, because he uses fragments from 4th movement in both 6th and 9th movement.
The last movement Zwv 6-10, I think Zelenka might have originally composed for another, earlier work.
1) The last movements only have 12 lines per page, the rest of the mass has 14 lines. 2) Zelenka uses 5 bars on each line in last movement. The rest of the mass he use 4 bars.
One might speculate which work this movement originates from. Perhaps Missa Spei Zwv 5 ?
I hope you get your fundings. It would be great if his unrecorded masses were preformed and perhaps recorded as well. Capella Leopoldina was not so fortunate. Zwv 4 was ready for recording, but noone was interested to make a CD of it. So the conducter had to give up. Sad. Grrrrr.
Cross fingers, legs and knock wood, good luck with getting those fundings. Please tell us the outcome.
Since you perfere a limitid wind ensemble (2 oboes, basoon) may I suggest Zwv 6 Missa Fidei ? The mass contains only Kyrie and Gloria. I have been a bit lazy lately, so only produced 4 movements (midi files) so far which I have sent to Skiaouros. Today I started again and finished the 5th movement. Hopefully Im finished in a week or two. Then Skiaouros need some time to add text, make mp3 of the midi's and editing scores.
Give it a month or so and I think the score you need is ready.
The mass is very nice. The 4 first movements are in repository.
The movement I have been listening to most times, is the Credo from Missa Omnium Sancturum Zwv 21. Very intense, virtous and well written. The long coda is just wonderful.
Hehe, very interesting read.
After reading this, I can only be impressed by Zelenka's character. Not easy for him in early 1730 to change his musical style towards music he didnt like. And the persons composing it.
But Zelenka managed to change his style of music without lessen the quality. Except for a few works perhaps. First movement of Zwv 164 Barbara dira effera is, well, less interersting music.
Thank you for sharing this with us Djdresden.
Great work here Skiaouros, especially of the very damaged score of Zwv 12.
Mp3 have very good quality. Wonderful musical experience for me. Thank you.
I like Zwv 12 better than 11 and 13. The Kyrie I & II and Gloria are very good movements. Strongly suggests all reading this to listen to Zwv 12.
Please look in private message for my mail.
Im very happy Mr.Mp3 himself is back. The three movements (Gloria, EITP and Laudamus) sounds very good. And choir sing the texts! Looks like the you and the new software are compatible
Interesting read about what composer and works might/probably inspired Zelenka for this mass.
David; I send you a few pages over mail. But first I need to get my hands on the full acrobate program, so I can save a few pages from the full PDF file.
At last I have made midifiles of all movements of Zwv 14. They are uploaded in repository if you like to get an idea how the mass sounds. Skiaouros will make better sound with mp3 later this year.
Missa Sancti Josephi is different from other masses. No doubt Zelenka tried very hard to "meet the audience", changing his style drastically. The change from Zwv 13 Missa Gratias agimus tibi to Zwv 14 Sancti Josephi is so huge that I had several times wondered if this mass indeed was written by Jan.
The heavy use of windintrument is remarkable. He uses flutes,oboes,bassoon, horns and trumpets in the same movement. The windinstruments got lots of solo material.
KYRIE (Mp3 available)
Written in one movement, Gloria starts with an unusual slow introduction of 4 bars. The 4 bars theme reapear later when chorus enter. Usually Zelenka would start with an instrumental allegro, followed by a slow chorus entry, and return to allegro theme with choir and orchestra.
The main theme is also non typical Zelenka. Sounds more like a classical composer writing a mass in "old style".
If one look for "Zelenka trademarks" I would say the change sudden change between major/minor is apparent in this movement.
My favorite part of this movement (time 3:15) is when the main theme is used as fugue, the 2.trompet starts, followed by 1.trompet, then 2.horn.
Written in 8 movements.
*Gloria begins with a riternello which reminds me of the last chorus in Credo Zwv13. There the resemblance ends. Rest of the movement a pair of voices "call and anwer" each other. In between tutti makes its entrance, making the whole piece varied and interesting listening to. Nice piece.
*Et Incarnatus is a grave movement, where the violas play 1/8 beats notes and the voices (S,A,T,B,B) sing long notes. Beautiful.
*Laudamus is a lovely aria, where a pair of voices have solo with 2 oboes and 2 flutes. Nice drive and makes me happy listening to it. The tenor have a very interesting passage (time 3:15-3:35).
*Qui Tollis a short fugue.
*Suscipe is a dramatic piece. Doesnt sound very Zelenka.
*Qui Sedes is one of the oddest baroque pieces I ever heard, and the oddest by Zelenka. But so very interesting to listen to. Movement begins with a typical Vivaldi riternello, followed by an off beat slavic folk tune with an offbeat bass. The two themes play two times, then comes a classical theme in the voices. Then Zelenka begin to mix the three themes. Cool.
*Quoniam is an aria. Cute.
*Cum Sancto Spiritu is utterly brilliant chorus. The end of the piece sounds more classical than baroque. Have I listened to this piece many times...
CREDO was sadly not composed for this mass.
Written in 4 movements.
*Sanctus begins with a short slow introduction followed by lively vivace. Another movement sounding more and more classical as it develops. Nice choral piece.
*Osanna I is a short slow choral movement. Nothing out of the ordinary.
*Benedictus reminds me somewhat of the aria Zwv 29. Sounds Zelenka. Nice.
*Osanna II is another short choral movement.
Written in 2 movements.
*Agnus dei is a slow aria. Reminds very little of Zelenka. Nice thou.
*Dona Nobis is a short version of Kyrie.
Some parts of the score was heavy damaged by water, so this was real challenge figuring out the whole score. Hope I made it as much up to the composer original. 1 of 4 bars is damaged or totally gone on many pages.
Handwriting is Zelenkas, and the piece bear markings of being composed not copied. I think it was composed by him.
Do you think this mass was composed by Zelenka ?
If, what is your opinion why it sound so different from his other masses ?
My next project is Zwv 6 Missa Fidei. First movement is uploaded.
The two pieces are indentical, but are played in different tempi. While one is played by live musicians, the other is played by dead musicians (computermade). Therefore they might sound as different compositions if you dont know the music well.
I have worked with Zwv 14 and some more movements are now available as midi files in repository. And yes, there are more interesting movements besides Kyrie. Cum Sancto Spiritu is a real treat.
About the tempo's in Kyrie; I think the main section is ok. There is a limit how fast one can play octaves before it sounds blurred. The slow section just before the end might endure a faster pace before loosing its character.
Zwv 14 Missa Sancti Josephi is, after my opinion, the mass where Zelenka is most "modern". Some of the themes as more classical than baroque in style. Listen to the end of Cum Sancto and Sanctus. Compare it with Händel and Bach and say it sounds baroque. Nah...
Incredible how he changed his style in two years from Zwv 13 Missa Gratias agimus tibi to the next. I think Zelenka worked very hard to make this mass.
I rate this mass a better work that Zwv 17 & 18. Cries for a recording.
Zwv 8 & 9;
Lets start with Zwv 9 Missa Corporis Domini . Have many similarities with Zwv 7 is style. I like it better than the 7th. The Credo and Dona nobis are very good movements.
Zwv 8 Missa Nativitatis Domini is altogether very different from the two mentioned above. Where Zwv 7 & 9 are grand and solemn masses, Zwv 8 is light in character and "happy".
Sadly this mass doesnt contain Sanctus and Agnus dei. Probably these movements were lost early, perhaps in Zelenkas lifetime. All early copies of Zwv 8 contains the Santus and Agnus dei from Zwv 10 Missa Charitatis. Or perhaps Zelenka never wrote them.