Posts by Elwro

Sorry for my silence. I'm deep in research but the Zelenka project is still alive & kicking! The concert with ZWV 3 and 6 is planned for November 21, 2009. We are used to practicing before receiving funding; it has never failed us yet and so we hope it won't fail us this time, too 4 days ago more than 500 people came to our concert with C. Ph. E. Bach's Johannespassion, which bodes well for talks with potential sponsors.

Alright, much time has passed, perhaps a new post (instead of editing an earlier one) is in order Here goes:

II. CHRISTE ELEISON

1. The first note, „a” with a „7” in the b.c. is a bit mysterious (“a minor 7” leading to “D”? At the beginning of a Baroque aria in a minor?), but perhaps it should be left as it is.
2. There is a violin passage which appears twice, in bars 13-15 and 53-55. In bar 53 the “f” has a sharp sign; in bar 13 it doesn’t, and the other voices are the same in both cases. Changing the “f” to “f sharp” in bar 13 would be exactly the thing I suggested earlier regarding ZWV 3 but to which G.R. convincingly opposed Do you really think Zelenka meant bars 13 and 53 to sound differently? Also, I really don’t get the meaning of “c sharp” in the end of bars 15 and 55. A “c natural” would sound perfectly fine, but if the author explicitly wrote a sharp sign there, well, perhaps he was on to something…

III. KYRIE 2

1. Bar 11: The first two notes of the oboes, 1st violin and sopranos should not be eighth notes, but an augmented eighth and a sixteenth.
2. Bar 14: 2nd violin and altos should, I think, have an “f sharp” on “ri” in “Kyrie”.

IV. GLORIA

1. I just want to notice that the “9” in the b.c. in bar 28 is realized by the altos; whereas the “9” in a similar place in bar 24 has no vocal realization. This could be changed by having the sopranos sing “e” as their first note; but it could of course also be left just for the b.c. player.

V. DOMINE DEUS

1. In bar 3, 2nd oboes and the b.c. should have an “a sharp” instead of a “b flat”.
2. Until bar 33, the movement seems to be (vocally) written for a solo basso and choir. And so some “solo” / “tutti” marks would be in order. My proposal: for the tenor, put “tutti” in bar 10, just to be sure; for the sopranos and altos, put “tutti” in bar 11, similarly. But for the basso: put “solo” in bar 5, then “tutti” at the second note of bar 11, then “solo” in bar 13, “tutti” from the half of bar 20, “solo” in bar 23 and “tutti” from the half of bar 31.

VI. QUONIAM TU SOLUS SANCTUS

1. Similarly as Domine Deus, this one seems scored for a solo voice (now the tenor) and a choir. So, I’d put “tutti” in altos, bar 3 and in bassi and sopranos, bar 4; as for the tenor, “solo” in bar 1, “tutti” from the second note of bar 4 but “solo” at the fifth note of this bar, “tutti” from the half of bar 10, “solo” from the last two notes of bar 11, “tutti” from bar 18.
2. Violas and tenors should have “e c” instead of “d b” as the last two notes of bar 20.
3. There is a parallel octave between sopranos and tenors in bar 33/34. Solution: the first note of the tenors in bar 34 should be a “b natural”, not “d”.
4. In bar 45, shouldn’t the second note of altos and 2nd violin be “c” instead of “b”? (More “motivically” fitting and sounds better.)

Together with my above comments regarding Kyrie and Amen, this concludes what I have to say about ZWV 6 right now. (I still haven't checked the b.c. thoroughly.)

Hello,

Sorry for the delay - I just wanted to report that recently I've been quite deeply involved in research connected with my PhD and giving classes (the exam session at my university is coming), and thus could devote less time to the scores. I have a growing list of comments, and will post them hopefully in one of the coming days.

LW.

Hello,

In bar 15, the alto also needs to be changed to match the violas. ("Cum" should have an eighth note, preceded by an eighth rest.)

Also, regarding bars 25-26, I feel completely convinced by G.R. that there was a mistake in the oboes (a second eighth rest should be inserted after the first eighth rest in bar 25, so that the melody is "pushed to the right" for a short segment).

"I noticed that the page starting with bar 31 has a sharp in the key, hence my added sharps to F seems ok."
That's very interesting! By any chance, does any of the preceding pages also have a sharp in the key? It would explain why there was no sharp near the f notes in e.g. violins in bar 27 (where the note to be played is clearly f sharp).

Here are some of my other comments regarding ZWV 6.

I. KYRIE 1

1. Bar 15: Oboe 2 and violino 2 are missing an eighth rest on beat no. 4.

2. Bar 16: In the same two parts as above the second note needs to be a quarter note, not an eighth note.

3. Bar 28: If this region really is to be "Strumenti colle Voci", as written in bar 25, then the first two notes of the first violas should be an augmented eighth note with and a sixteenth note, not two eighth notes.

4. Bar 32: The soprano and alto parts should have "Solo" marks, I think. (If you agree that it should be so, then they also need to be removed from bar 34.)

5. Bar 41: The alto should have a "Solo" mark.

6. Bar 49: The f sharp in the first violas should be a quarter note (similar as in the altos), not an eighth note.

7. Bar 55: The second note of the soprano should be "a", not "b" (see the instruments).

8. Bar 56: The tenor and 2nd violas are wrong - the "f" on the second beat is not consistent with the b.c. and other voices. It clashes e.g. with the soprano and the 1st violin. The two "wrong" voices could e.g. have an "e" there. Solution: let the tenor sing (and 2nd violas play) "d(8) c(16) d(16) e(8) f(8)" in the first two beats of bar 56.

9. Bar 57: I'd put a "Solo" mark in the basso voice (even though it's obvious).

10. Bar 69: Oboe 2 and violino 2 are missing an eighth rest on beat no. 4.

===========================================================

As for KYRIE 2, my most important doubt is the following: consider bars 35-36. The subject enters in the basso, the countersubject in the soprano. The shape of the countersubject would dictate it having "b flat" instead of "b natural" twice in bar 36. It also sounds more natural to me. What's more, consider changing "b natural" to "b flat" also in bar 37, on the 3rd beat of the alto. The whole passage sounds better to me this way, especially since there are "b flat" notes in the tenor and basso on the 1st beat of bar 38.

More comments are coming (I have them written in pencil in the score); I'll just edit this post or write another one if someone replies.

Alright, following Skiaouros' practice I have opened a new thread for discussing the ZWV 6: http://jdzelenka.net/forums/showthread.php?t=133

Please, let us continue the discussion there. I'll try to post more tonight (late in the night).

This is a thread for discussing the score of Missa Fidei, ZWV 6. The discussion continues from this thread: http://jdzelenka.net/forums/showthread.php?p=520#post520

The following is my last post there:

Alright, I spent a few hours with the score of ZWV 6 today. Will have quite a lot of stuff to write about, but now let's just concentrate on the Amen.

"Especially bar 15 was difficult. I looked at it for 3 days before I understood what to do."
I'm awfully sorry to criticize the result of your hard work, but one thing that struck me when reading bar 15 was that it was a bit un-vocal in the tenor voice. (But only a bit, and all composers of vocal music have written something un-vocal.) (edit: when editing this post some time after writing it, and having thought through the harmonics, I must say the tenor voice does not seem particularly unvocal to me now. The problem of the bar not sounding too well in my ears persists, however.) And frankly, for me it doesn't sound too well, perhaps due to three lower voices concentrating on g-a notes in the first three beats. What was your reason for writing "g" on the third beat in the basso voice (and not "e")? (From the size of the note I gather that the score was illegible there.)

So, not having the manuscript to consult, I could let my imagination run free I noticed you hadn't used the fact that the b.c. dictated #4 in the first beat of bar 15. In the first version I changed only the tenor (but let it have the "e", albeit a tad earlier) and put "e" instead of "g" in the basso (bar 15 is the third bar in my examples):

[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex1.jpg]

But then I thought that the "a" in the tenor voice was perhaps clearly written in the score, since you used the "normal size" font there. So perhaps other voices could be changed, and if so, the sopranos and altos could be changed as early as the last beat of bar 14 (the "smaller size" font begins there). Here are 2 versions (I have some others in mind, but these 2 present the most important choice to be made: where to put the "c sharp" and "e").

The second proposal (sopranos get the "c sharp"; I had to avoid downward movement of all four voices when going from bar 14 to 15):
[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex2.jpg]

The third proposal (altos get the "c sharp"):
[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex3.jpg]

I prepared a (lousy) MP3 file for you to aurally check out my proposals. It's here: http://www.divshare.com/download/6379207-b28

It has about 30 seconds and consists of my 3 proposals, in the order displayed above. I think I'm partial to the 3rd one for a few reasons, but of course unfortunately it may have nothing to do with what's really in the score - please tell me your opinion!

======================================================

Other things regarding the Amen:

1. Bar 14 has "6 4" in the b.c., which would dictate d-minor, but there's clearly a-minor there.

2. Bar 35 has a parallel octave between basso and tenor (in the smaller size notes). One of many possible solutions: change the two last quarter notes in the tenor voice to four 8-notes "d e f d". (It would make for some motivic connection with what's going on around.) But there's another thing - are you sure the basso should have "e", not "c", in the first beat of bar 36?

3. In bar 51, the third note of the tenor voice should be "g", not "f".

4. In bar 53, there is a soprano-tenor parallel fifth. In my opinion the third note of the tenor voice should be "d", not "e", and everything becomes fine.

5. In bar 61: how about removing the natural sign in the b.c. and the basso? Is it in the score?

The music is fantastic, thanks gain for your hard work! In the coming days I'll post my comments regarding the other movements.

Best regards,

Leszek Wronski.

Alright, I spent a few hours with the score of ZWV 6 today. Will have quite a lot of stuff to write about, but now let's just concentrate on the Amen.

"Especially bar 15 was difficult. I looked at it for 3 days before I understood what to do."
I'm awfully sorry to criticize the result of your hard work, but one thing that struck me when reading bar 15 was that it was a bit un-vocal in the tenor voice. (But only a bit, and all composers of vocal music have written something un-vocal.) (edit: when editing this post some time after writing it, and having thought through the harmonics, I must say the tenor voice does not seem particularly unvocal to me now. The problem of the bar not sounding too well in my ears persists, however.) And frankly, for me it doesn't sound too well, perhaps due to three lower voices concentrating on g-a notes in the first three beats. What was your reason for writing "g" on the third beat in the basso voice (and not "e")? (From the size of the note I gather that the score was illegible there.)

So, not having the manuscript to consult, I could let my imagination run free I noticed you hadn't used the fact that the b.c. dictated #4 in the first beat of bar 15. In the first version I changed only the tenor (but let it have the "e", albeit a tad earlier) and put "e" instead of "g" in the basso (bar 15 is the third bar in my examples):

[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/al…183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex1.jpg]

But then I thought that the "a" in the tenor voice was perhaps clearly written in the score, since you used the "normal size" font there. So perhaps other voices could be changed, and if so, the sopranos and altos could be changed as early as the last beat of bar 14 (the "smaller size" font begins there). Here are 2 versions (I have some others in mind, but these 2 present the most important choice to be made: where to put the "c sharp" and "e").

The second proposal (sopranos get the "c sharp"; I had to avoid downward movement of all four voices when going from bar 14 to 15):
[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/al…183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex2.jpg]

The third proposal (altos get the "c sharp"):
[Blocked Image: http://i197.photobucket.com/al…183/Elwro/ZWV6Amenex3.jpg]

I prepared a (lousy) MP3 file for you to aurally check out my proposals. It's here: http://www.divshare.com/download/6379207-b28

It has about 30 seconds and consists of my 3 proposals, in the order displayed above. I think I'm partial to the 3rd one for a few reasons, but of course unfortunately it may have nothing to do with what's really in the score - please tell me your opinion!

======================================================

Other things regarding the Amen:

1. Bar 14 has "6 4" in the b.c., which would dictate d-minor, but there's clearly a-minor there.

2. Bar 35 has a parallel octave between basso and tenor (in the smaller size notes). One of many possible solutions: change the two last quarter notes in the tenor voice to four 8-notes "d e f d". (It would make for some motivic connection with what's going on around.) But there's another thing - are you sure the basso should have "e", not "c", in the first beat of bar 36?

3. In bar 51, the third note of the tenor voice should be "g", not "f".

4. In bar 53, there is a soprano-tenor parallel fifth. In my opinion the third note of the tenor voice should be "d", not "e", and everything becomes fine.

5. In bar 61: how about removing the natural sign in the b.c. and the basso? Is it in the score?

The music is fantastic, thanks gain for your hard work! In the coming days I'll post my comments regarding the other movements.

Best regards,

Leszek Wronski.

Hi again G. R.,

I downloaded and printed out the notes for ZWV 6. Just two initial comments.

1. In the concluding Amen, in bar 21, there are 4 consecutive parallel fifths between soprano and alto. (Among the "smaller" notes.) I of course realise the idea is to have the sopranos sing the same motive as in bar 23, and a part of the alto voice (the second half of the bar) is there in the score, but these two already give two parallel fifths (B-E -> A-D -> G-C). So something has to be changed, and since the alto notes are in the score, I guess the soprano voice (actually, just the two B-A notes) needs to be changed in the 2nd half of the bar. (Also, I'd risk saying that if the first tenor note in this bar is "e", than the first note of the alto is probably "c"). And is the basso voice really written with such leaps? (This is especially important for me since I sing in that voice :-)) Maybe the "a" should be put an octave higher. A tenth followed by a seventh are awkward to sing. (8-notes!)

2. In Kyrie II, I noticed a parallel octave between altos and bassi (and b.c.+vn.2) in bar 3. Just a curiosity.

Cheers,

L.W.

Hi G. R.,

thank you very much for this response! I can't believe I haven't noticed the mistakes in the oboes, I remember checking them against the violas and sopranos, my eyes must've played some tricks on me As for the soprano-tenor echo in bars 23-24, it's clear, I just found it a bit strange that the chord was just marked "5" in the b.c. After some reflection and comparison with other places, I find it less strange now

Cheers,

L.W.

Guys, I think I've figured out what to do in the troublesome bars 26-27 from Et resurrexit of ZWV 3. I did a quick sketch in Finale and exported it to a PDF file, here: http://www.divshare.com/download/6326038-312

Please ignore everything (layout, lack of text and articulation etc) except the harmony. If you listen to the MP3 from the public repository (while looking at the score prepared by Skiaouros), you'll notice that something sounds wrong in bars 26-27 (not only there, but these two measures are the topic of this particular post). I thought of possible changes, played them on my piano and then tried them in Finale - I think what I have now sounds right. The PDF has 7 measures, corresponding to measures 22-28 of Skiaouros' score. My changes are in the violins, soprano and 2nd oboe. The most important things are:

1. The chord on the 3rd beat of bar 26 (bar 5 in my PDF) is b MINOR, not MAJOR. This corresponds to the b.c. and fits nicely with the change to major in the next bar.

2. The violins have f SHARP, not f NATURAL, on the first beat of measure 26 (5 in my PDF). We can interpret it as the root of the chord sounding at that moment, even though it would be perfectly fine without the root, but the violins have to play something there - most likely an 8th note - and f sharp seems to be the best choice.

Apart from that, I changed g to g sharp in bar 26 and c to c sharp in bar 27 in the violins. Just try it - the passages flow better I could prepare an mp3 if anyone's interested, but it would be of decidedly lower class than the ones by Skiaouros.

There is (for me) one worrying thing in this region of the piece, namely the tenor voice in bar 24 (bar 3 in my PDF). On the 2nd beat, the b.c. says "5", and the tenor has a "6". But it is not necessarily wrong.

I will have other, smaller, comments on ZWV3 - I'll send them directly to Skiaouros via email. I'd be grateful for comments regarding my proposal.

Hi G.R.,

Thank you for you suggestion! Indeed, it seems the ZWV 6 is ideal for my needs The fourth movement is particularly charming and I'm eagerly waiting for more. After exchanging another couple of emails with Skiaouros I'll try to take a closer look at the Et Resurrexit of ZWV 3 now.

Thank you once again,

L. W.

My choir applied for funding for a big Zelenka project. If all goes well, in the coming years we will perform Z's masses from the scores prepared by skiaouros. (Thank you so much again!) When writing the grant application we only knew we would have notes for ZWV 2, 3 and 12; of these, 2 is truly molochean, and no. 12 will soon be performed in New Zealand (as skiaouros told me). That left us with ZWV 3, which lacks Gloria, but is fortunately scored for strings and oboes only.

My trouble is the following: our next year's Zelenka concert should contain music exclusively by Zelenka and its duration should approach one hour. ZWV 3 will take twenty-something minutes. So the question is: what else should the concert contain?

One option would be to fill the gap in ZWV 3 by the Gloria in ZWV 30, but the scoring is different and the piece should better be saved for a performance of the great ZWV 2.

Another option, the one I'm leaning towards right now, is to sing a missa brevis. Fortunately, one of the masses uploaded by skiaouros is a missa brevis: ZWV 15, Missa Eucharistica. The problem is it demands a bigger ensemble, but I believe we will manage to overcome this difficulty.

I'd appreciate any other suggestions!

I'm off to a concert tour with my choir and Jerusalem Baroque Orchestra, and probably won't be able to visit this forum for about 10 days, but please, don't let this stop you from replying to this thread

Best regards,

LW.

SK,

I just sent you an extensive email, mainly with corrections to ZWV 3. I think I'll be finishing to check ZWV 3 and looking at ZWV 15 now,

Best regards,

L.

The forums may be quiet, but e.g. whenever I have free time I study the notes which Skiaouros sent me If all goes well, I'll announce the project soon: it's probable a certain Zelenka mass will receive its first "modern" performance in 2009. More details will follow when I get some green lights from certain people.

Hello,

I apologize for not having responded earlier on; unortunately I was very busy organising a certain conference. This is thankfully past me and I can now return to exploring Zelenka... Thank you very much for the pointers on obtaining notes; I think the first thing I'll do is buy the ZWV1.

I'm eagerly waiting for the completed mp3s of ZWVs 2, 4, 9, 10 and 15... of these I think I like ZWV2 most so far. It would be fantastic if I could see the full score. Does preparing a score from the files you have take a lot of work? May I ask you to do this if you have some time? Since these works have not been recorded yet and (perhaps) weren't performed in the 21st (or 20th) century they would be ideal for my choir. Of course, we would need to apply for funding etc., but we've had some success in such matters concerning G.A. Benda so I'd expect we will also do well in this case. Of course we would discuss all financial / copyright matters before any performances.

Thanks again for your comprehensive reply,

Best wishes,

LW.

Hello,

I'm a member of a choir called Kantorei Sankt Barbara, in Krakow, Poland (http://www.kantorei.cracow.pl/aktualnosci.html). We frequently try to perform lesser-known Baroque music. This year, for example, we have performed four cantatas by Georg Anton Benda. (Probably not performed for 200 years.) My dream is for my choir to sing Zelenka's masses. I managed to collect quite a few recordings, but it seems obtaining scores is nearly impossible. The only reasonably priced score I managed to find on offer is ZWV 1 Missa Sanctae Caeciliae from Edition Walhall.

Could anyone give some pointers as to how to obtain scores of Zelenka's masses? Missa Votiva, Missa Dei Fili, Missa Sanctimae Trinitatis, Missa Omnium Sanctorum and Requiem in d are at the top of my list (perhaps I have forgotten a few works since Zelenka's quality is usually very high). I remember I read somewhere I could order autograph copies for 0.30 Euros a page, but I can't find this info anymore... I'd be willing to (try to) prepare a score from an autograph, I have some small experience with such matters.

So, a long introductory post I hope someone will point me somewhere and Zelenka's masses will be performed in Krakow...

Just sent a PM to Prof. Duvall. I hope it gets to him - I'm trying to obtain scores of Zelenka's masses to perform them with my choir and the task has been extremely difficult so far.